Julio Groppa Aquino – Dear Paola, Cristiano and me clearly understand that this interview, with the purpose of resuming Sandra Mara Corazza’s legacy, could not have been done with anyone else. The first thing that we would like to know concerns your initial encounter with Sandra.

Paola Zordan – My encounter with Sandra was through a graduate course. As a MSc candidate, I had already seen Sandra in the audience of events, always questioning, making comments to those who were presenting something in a public circumstance. Somebody told me: “this is Sandra Corazza; she is always like this, picky”. I was studying monsters in my PhD and Susana Rangel, a friend who was also a professor at FACED (School of Education), showed me the title: Para uma filosofia do inferno na Educação: estranhos, grotescos, bárbaros, selvagens, baixos, infames, loucos, libertinos, bestas, filhas de Lilith-Lua Negra, bruxas, fantasmas, vampiros, demônios, o Eu, e outros personagens afins [For a philosophy of hell in Education: weirds, grotesques, barbarians, savages, lowlifes, infamous, crazy, libertines, beasts, children of Black Moon-Lilith, witches, ghosts, vampires, demons, the Self, and other akin characters]. I couldn’t help taking that course, it had my face on it! It was 2001, the second year of my PhD, and I was almost giving birth to my daughter Ana Clara, hardly one month after my mother had died after two very difficult years, nine hospitalizations for cancer. The course started one week before Ana was born; it was a 2-credit seminar, the room was the same where DIF¹ 1 The research group DIF: artistagens, fabulações, variations (CNPq), has no acronym. The prefix DIF, coming from the philosophies of DIFference, is assumed as a fictitious acronym, an inflection, an onomatopoeia, a breathing. [artistagens, fabulações, variações research group] is located now on the 8^th floor. I was the first one to arrive, with a huge belly; I always wore high heels to avoid pain in my feet. For many years Sandra spoke of my belly and my red shoes, with a Carmen Miranda-like platform that left me about 16 cm taller. She was crazy for the shoes, for the belly. She loved to know that it would be a girl and that I was the Rosa Fischer’s advisee who was studying the monsters. I said: “the baby will be born either this next week or in the following one, but I’m not going to lose more than one class of your course; it is precisely what I need for my dissertation”. I never used the bibliography of a course like I did with that one; I still use it nowadays. In the end, I didn’t lose any class. I remember the eight theses concerning the demon; Luciane Uberti had recently finished her Scientific Initiation, Cristianne Fammer Rocha saying that she was there for Sandra and not for the contents, Luis Fernando Bilibio. We were not even ten students. I think that the seminar topics were really scary. I drafted a paper for this course: Bruxas: figuras de poder [Witches: figures of power]. Sandra liked it and encouraged me to publish it. From this on, that “infernal” love – as she expresses in the book Para uma filosofia do inferno na educação [For a philosophy of hell in education], of 2002 – happened in many ways. The groups advised by Sandra and Rosa walked together. We used to go to the Cidade Baixa neighborhood with the advisors, all mixed, for amenities, concepts, performances, and authors. It was such a mix that here was a range of exchanges that I can summarize like this: those who became too much Deleuzian too much stayed with Sandra; those who wanted to study more Foucault stayed with Rosa Fischer. Following the Qualification, I had a big twist in my dissertation (Zordan, 2004ZORDAN, Paola Basso Menna Barreto Gomes. Arte e geo-educação: perspectivas virtuais. 2004. 378 f. Tese (Doutorado em Educação) – Faculdade de Educação, Universidade Federal do Rio Grande do Sul, Porto Alegre, 2004.). Sandra was in my examination board, and she showed me how much presenting the undeniable animal trace of the monsters in the figures of the evil was a dissertation already accomplished, with nothing else to be said. It was a too easy dissertation. In one of Sandra’s classes, those unforgettable brilliant classes, she presented the eight easy theses on the demon. One easy thesis is almost like a hypothesis that one does not unravels, and what she intended was, always, to think out of the box. The classes, in one way or another, synthesized what was published in the book Para uma filosofia do inferno na educação: Nietzsche, Deleuze e outros malditos afins [For a philosophy of hell in education: Nietzsche, Deleuze and other damned akin] (Corazza, 2002CORAZZA, Sandra. Para uma filosofia do inferno na educação. Nietzsche, Deleuze e outros malditos. Belo Horizonte: Autentica, 2002.).

Cristiano Bedin da Costa – It should be noted the specificity of this book, which originally should be part of the collection Pensadores & Educação [Thinkers & Education], coordinated by Professor Alfredo Veiga-Neto. The book was almost entitled Inferno & Educação [Hell & Education], as Alfredo mentions in the presentation, but due to its style, it ended up acquiring a “life of its own” by decision of Autêntica Editora.

P – Yes, this book marks a demon-like twist in the sense that she takes on a cursed production, actually damned. Amongst all of this, I folded my own dissertation in these holy curses to think Dionysian experiences, to bring the grotesque, to stay more in the art and less in the education. Sandra ended up advising my dissertation in the last year. In some way, the whole dissertation ended up being produced in that year, in less than one year. It was in St. George’s day that we sat to arrange the change of advising and signing, Sandra and I, the papers already sent by Rosa. She had an undeniable interest for my work – it was the moment of Pedagogia dos Monstros [Pedagogy of the Monsters], organized by Tomaz [Tadeu da Silva] –, she spoke of my research in public. There was a whole festive aspect. Sandra invented actions, interventions, performances. A lot was planned outside of the academic environment.

J – In relation to this, let’s say, centrifuge movement, how did it happen?

P – Among books, relations, affectionate combinations and productions, everything also happened at the table of the bar. It was like an extension between the meetings inside the institution and the table of the bar. So much that Luciane Uberti, who ended up finishing her PhD with Rosa, used to joke that she would draft a dissertation concerning the table of the bar pedagogy. Some family members and friends, besides Claudia Carvalho, helped to organize the tribute book to Sandra. Husbands used to join us. All the guests for examination boards, lectures, events, used to be taken to bars and nights out. It was a tradition. The curses and the slender – conceptual, structural, all the cliches of which we spoke badly – implied this abandonment of the culturalism, the criticism of the identities, and the assumption of the Difference in itself, with all its enchantment. At this moment, the gossip at the bar also showed a whole estrangement of what was being done concerning the ANPEd [National Association of Research and Graduate Studies on Education] Curriculum Work Group [WG], which rejected this epistemic turn and, at the same time, worshiped the novelty. And here there is a range of paradoxes, because papers from her and her advisees that express this vagamunda [wanderer] turn, as she named it, were rejected; she was rejected several times in this same WG. Thus, in the last years, she ended up involving with the Art WG, in which she was invited to present a commissioned work in the 38^th meeting, in 2017. This was interesting because she had a strong affiliation with curriculum, and, when Deleuze enters, Tomaz still makes a Special Session in the 20^th meeting, in 2003, in the Curriculum WG. All this involved several estrangement and ruptures. The last rejection experienced by Sandra made her quite mad, as the opinion degraded the term aléfico [Alephian], coming from Borges’s Aleph. She used to send to us the opinions and her unbridled reply. She had an amazing patience to reply to all the negative opinions that she received, pointing the finger to the ignorance of the anonymous reviewers, and filing an appeal. I understand that Para uma filosofia do inferno na educação was a landmark, a first turn, the entrance of Deleuze in the thought of the curriculum, of the productions of what came to be the research line Philosophies of the Difference and Education, which, following her steps and doing justice to what was constructed, now becomes Escrileituras, Artistagens, Variações [Scriptreadings, Artistings, Variations]. With the launching of the book sandramaracorazza: obra, vidas etc. [sandramaracorazza: opus, lives, etc.](Aquino; Carvalho; Zordan, 2022AQUINO, Júlio Groppa; CARVALHO, Claudia Regina Rodrigues; ZORDAN, Paola (Org). Sandramaracorazza: obra, vidas, etc. Porto Alegre: UFRGS/Rede Escrileituras, 2022.), which addresses Sandra’s whole production, it is possible to perceive what Deleuze provoked for Sandra. Until 1999, even when she kept bringing a great inventiveness in the use of words and in conceptual relations, placing some textual elements – in general, the most traditional ones – always in tension, the overflow of literature towards the production had not happened yet. This is a movement that has Deleuze as an intercessor, a movement that happened with the research line, at the time only Tomaz and her, around the marking of the two great cursed, Deleuze and Nietzsche, who became assumed as horizon. Other names followed.

J – But there is a movement before the one you describe, towards Foucault and the topic of childhood, right?

P – I understand that more than childhood, as at this moment she is with the metainfancionática [metachildishnetics]. Strictly speaking, she never stopped thinking and addressing the childishness, so much that the topic is in the EIS AICE [Spaces Images Signs] [Author Infant Curriculum Educator], investigative units that crossed her last productions. What is changed is the type of segment approached. Sandra has an initial production that is, using schizoanalytic terms, in a molar segment. So, she came with that História da infância sem fim [History of the endless childhood], which comes from a Foucauldian thesis, and then she turns through a molecular line of escape. Nietzsche-Deleuze enter here, and later she would find the notion of fantasy through Roland Barthes in The pleasure of the text, the studies of The preparation of the novel, with the haiku. The idea of the scripture fantasy was born from this encounter, and this moment is registered in the book published in 2010, written with her MSc and PhD candidates (the BOP – Bando de Orientação de Pesquisa [Research Advice Band]). It is a huge turn for literature. I remember you, Julio, questioning in some examination board this notion of fantasy that began to operate there. I believe that you wanted her to say it was not about the concept from psychoanalysis. What was happening, at least this is how I understand, was the construction of another fantasy. I understand that it was a fantasy in the Barthesian borders.

C – In order we don’t take a leap here, considering this infant question, it seems to me that what happens there, with Nietzsche and Deleuze, is a variation of style. Because the infant is kept in the Artistagens, as a strong concept, and then we have the books produced in joint by the research line. In them, we find the betting in a writing without a clear marking of authorship, a little like the impersonal Deleuzian way. And later, Barthes comes to solve this in another way with biographematic. I find it interesting to think this Deleuzian leap linked with the writing style, searching for other forms of expression.

P – I believe so. The books in common, today, now that I have reread them to write my chapter in the book concerning Sandra’s work, I understand that they are totally schizoanalytic. Composições e Linhas de Escrita [Compositions and Lines of Writing] almost do not leave schizoanalysis, which is the basis. In Artistagens, something else starts to enter, which does not unstick from schizoanalysis yet, it does not unstick from Deleuze, but already starts, in a subtle way, to produce something else. The biographematic came within an effective problem. I have a novel saved, Um amor bem vago [Quite a vague love], that I gave to Tomaz and her to read in 2007, and they were crazy, because they thought that it was biographical, but it was not. Actually, it was about a university professor, they were quite mad because they thought that I was writing about me, that the character Julia Berger spoke for me. It’s not me, I tried to explain it, I didn’t get married wearing a veil and a wreath, it has nothing to do with it. Then, it came the issue of the biography, with several conflicts and criticism around what was written in blogs, both mine and my advisees, and soon after Sandra’s research. From this, Tomaz started to disperse amidst a great question around the writing and a discussion concerning what structuralism is, what leads to Deleuze’s text from the end of the 1960s. Then, Tomaz began to study Bakhtin to understand language from its structures and because he wanted to study Spinoza and the problem of expression, which he considered Deleuze’s most difficult book. And then the issue of the structural language, which created a certain split in the perspectives of research, entered.

J – Sandra produced a lot, much more than the average university professor. It is an extensive and consistent production. And there is also the joint production with the advisees, right?

P – This is expressed in the interactive mural of the Advanced Seminar Metodosofia para todos e para ninguém [Methodosophy for all and for nobody] (offered within the scope of the Education Graduate Program of UFRGS, during the first school period of 2021), whose title was thought by her when she was in the hospital, for the following semester. There you find several of her texts in conversation with ours, all that proliferation that Sandra sowed. It is crazy.

C – There is some chaos there…

P –… and you see in that chaos what this knowledge comes to be. This is why this rescue of Sophie, this figure, of Greek substance, is so relevant, because Sandra is a demon-like incarnation of Sophie, she is the anima-mundi Pomba-Gira Sophie.

J – Back to the displacements of Sandra’s production, we have stopped in Barthes.

P – I experienced Barthes in a void. It was when I experienced an accumulation of trainees guidance activities – about thirty per semester. A very difficult moment for me because I really wanted to study Barthes. I was present in almost all examination boards of the research line, my first advisees were studying Barthes, and I only could read Barthes in the bathroom, when it was possible. But I didn’t follow this movement, like the folks who were advisees at that moment and who produced theses and dissertations marked by the Barthesian thought. It was also when Sandra wrote the poem Sem exceção [With no exception]. All the Cantos de Fouror [The songs of Furour], of 2008, speak of a time when she intensely threw herself in the literature. And she usd to read one book per day. This left everybody, me, Tomaz, crazy. She read Harry Potter, novels, short stories, whatever you think, she read. And then she read Lautréamont, and she was totally affected by Cantos de Maldoror [The songs of Maldoror]. Fouror came in this same turn. The poem Sem exceção, song two, the one that replies, replies, replies, is quite pretty to me. It was written in a moment of institutional burnout, at the beginning of an extreme demand for productivity by the Program and of tension in relation to literature in our production. The line was publicly and notably recognized as devious, cursed, insane. All this due to the repercussion of what was being amalgamated beyond the title of a Sandra’s book and that becomes to be recognized as artistagem. Also because of all the positions of assuming ourselves as literary in the education field. This really caused a frenzy. This is why it results, a little, in a turning its back to ANPEd, a centering of the production in books and not in papers. There was a triennium when FACED Graduate Program was awarded with Grade 5, which required from the coordination quite a strong demand of production in journals evaluated by Capes. The obligation to draft academic papers to continue in the Program marks the impossibility of Tomaz continuing in the line, due to his own strictly literary will. And then, another twist, which resumes K-12 education, what opened a new front for me, as I engaged in internships and already was subproject coordinator in the PIBID (Programa Institucional de Bolsas de Iniciação à Docência [Institutional Program of Initiation to Teaching Scholarship]). Soon enters the Escrileituras project.

J – Please tell us more on Escrileituras.

P – This demonization – let’s call this previous process of literary demonization – that implied all those happy affections of the schizoamorous experimentations, the time of that ethics that, more than Spinoza’s, was of all, was a time that ended. The requirement of a whole protocol of productivity changes the dance. Everybody felt part of that, but there were demands and concerns regarding the Program evaluation, and social insertion is one of the key points in the evaluation. I had already complained that I couldn’t articulate my life of professor of mandatory teaching internships of the Visual Arts Licentiate program – and all that constant coming and going from schools – with the productions of the line. I experienced a poetics in all of this, but it was quite complicated. What I could do were, actually, interventions in the institutional space. Sandra liked and didn’t like my inventions. For example, she liked the AMA intervention a lot, a palindrome that we sticked, my group and I, on the 8^th floor of the School of Education building in 2009. But other works caused much estrangement, there was a lot of criticism. Both Tomaz and her didn’t like it very much because this was not their ground, they suspected in a way of Visual Arts, of the plastic production, especially because the uses of Barthes and Deleuze, in these fields, quite often are frivolous. When this relation with K-12 education begins, by means of the Escrileituras, when the relation of these artistagens, of these fantasies with education begin to be shown, in the classroom, then, everything that in some way was demanded allows this twist, this resumption of a whole production previous to the one to which Sandra had turned her back. It was not a matter of working again with a generating topic, the focus of her first book, but to go back to K-12 education, without forgetting all the previous literary and biographematic twist. This is how the project Escrileituras: um modo de ler-escrever em meio à vida [Escrileituras: a way of reading-writing amidst life] emerged, with the collaboration of Patrícia Cardinale Dalarosa and made by the Bando de Orientação e Pesquisa, having been considered by CAPES (Coordenação de Aperfeiçoamento de Pessoal de Nível Superior [Higher Education Personnel Improvement Coordination]) Education Observatory. This project yielded another type of production. Actually, it is from it that an intense joint production with the advisees began. These joint productions, which were not a usual practice in Human Sciences, was ruled in the Program: the advisors should write with the advisees, the productions would be inclusive. The initial collective books were Fantasias de escrileitura [Fantasies of escrileitura], by Sandra’s band, and Secretações [Secretactions], organized by me and that gathered advisees from Tomaz, who was already leaving. Thus, two movements were happening there: the literary license and the translation. This latter was a need exposed by Luiz Daniel Rodrigues, who, besides being Sandra’s advisee, was a Libras [Brazilian Sign Language] interpreter. Not without discomfort, Sandra starts to think the translation as a didactic problem, in way quite a distinct way from Tomaz’s textual literary translation. That is, a procedural translation in relation to the intellectual production.

J – We can think that this is a moment of strong incidence on the didactic questions, with the idea of transcreation. The correct concept would be the transcreating translation, right?

P – Yes, but this concept comes a bit after a problem that you had posed to her. You were a great instigator to destabilize her conceptually. When she goes to São Paulo for her post-doc with you and you tell her that you don’t understand her, she told me that: “Julio is saying that he doesn’t understand what I write”. So, let’s translate! The translation doesn’t come from the need to communicate, but from the dialogue, the encounter. And the transcreation comes with the studies of the Campos brothers.

J – This idea of the transcreating translation seems to me an irreducible point in Sandra’s thought. That the professor is destined to transcreating, to translate transcreating, is a gorgeous synthesis of the craft. In this sense, Sandra was always loyal to the theoretical question of Didactics.

P – It’s not only the question. She was linked to Didactics in the Department of Education and Curriculum, just like Cristiano and Máximo Adó.

C – She will call it didactics-artist of the translation. The previous artistagens and the Campos brothers will draw the grounds for the construction of the link between translation and transcreation, what ends up assigning to the didactics a certain “freedom to be unfaithful” to the originals. In previous books, like Os cantos de Fouror [The Songs of Fouror] and Uma vida de professora [A life as a professor], for example, she was already advocating for an idea of classroom not grounded on the transmission of what was already known, but by a transmission of a certain “mystery”. And this has implications for Sandra’s didactics, for what she was in the classroom, in an auditorium, in an examination board. The way how she articulated the sentences, how she put into motion the knowledge in the classroom from the writing, from the reading of the texts prepared for the classes. The tone of these texts, the atmosphere of these classes, it is a whole performance. There is no doubt that didactics is a decisive reading key to understand how she operated the transcreating translation.

P – Her class had all that performativity, regardless of whatever twist, regardless of who was in the spot of the concepts that would be brought. She prepared lessons in notes and texts. They are fantastic files that we are trying to recover, assuming the commitment to keep these class preparations, the tests, the exercises, all this documentation. There is a whole marginal file that we want to gather. There are also the notebooks, with all the notes, post-its and erasures. All of this constituted those lessons that she organized within an audible performance. In fact, several times she ciphered words – what you call mystery has to do with certain ciphers, for instance EIS AICE. Thinking with the Lógica do sentido [The Logic of Sense], with the esoteric word, she worked with these words, but she also tried to decipher the words. And she also created very powerful figures in these lessons, as well as in the lectures. She provoked and provoked, especially the closer ones, the entire time. The Seminars drove people crazy.

C – There is the issue of Sandra’s body, that it was quite present: the way how she moved the concepts, the gestures that she articulated, over all in the classroom. It was a parallel singing. One movement that I remember well is her looking over her notes at the end of the lesson, followed by a I have finished and the sheets on the desk. It was like a password. From there, we could enter the game.

P – It’s interesting because she was very brave and very fearful at the same time. And she was very strong and very fragile at the same time. She really wanted me to write more on the fragile. When she was organizing the Breviário dos sonhos em educação [Breviary of the dreams in education], a book that already brought another movement, the last one, she asked me: “Where is the fragile?”. She really wanted me to draft a paper on the paradox of the fragile. When I said that I had published a text in a book of a colleague in Pelotas, she complained. She used to scold me a lot, not only for spending text in non-indexed journals and books with no circulation. She complained of the hair when they were uncut, of the nails when they were not done, of me being always doing a lot of housework. The fragile was in all of this. Another issue is the deciphering, from Proust and Signs.

This can be felt in several of her papers, from the beginning of the philosophy of hell. Sandra was an enciphering that deliberately did not decode. The difficulty that she faced at the initial moment, the demon-like one, was this: we do not want to be deciphered. Later, the question was: how do I need to translate all these concepts and all these elements that are at stake in the classroom? Then, the final problem – or rather, the pre-final one – is what happens in a lesson. Everything to abandon the old teaching-learning relationship, a depleted pair, and to think a lesson as a happening. This is the idea that is present from the outcry for artisting education.

J – This concern is evidenced in the book Aula com... Em vias de uma didática da invenção [Lesson with… On the way to a didactics of the invention] that Sandra, Ester and I organized. It is in tune with the concerns of this moment, in this case, through the company of a theoretical intercessor.

P – The translation notion, without having been made explicit, was also at stake in the Abecedário: educação da diferença [Abecedarium: education of the difference], organized by both of you. There is a strategy of glossing there already.

J – Yes, of course. And also, with the Dicionário das ideias feitas em educação [Dictionary of received ideas in education], also organized by the two of us.

C – A dictionary of which almost no one talks about, and that is one of the most interesting efforts among what was produced in joint.

P – I talk about it. A lot.

C – I find it quite pretty.

J – It’s unmatched.

P – I lent mine, I need to recover it. I’ve already heard things, in an examination board, because of this Dicionário. I heard that it was an outrage and such and such. There I felt the impact and the degree of discomfort that we cause from this Sandra vector. I was called subversive. And note that I didn’t contribute to the Dicionário. I don’t even know where I was when it was written.

J – On my part, it was the most cheerful text to write in my whole life. I sat down and wrote my part in less than thirty minutes. It was an epiphany. As a whole, the Dicionário das ideias feitas em educação is wonderful. Even more: it is incredibly worthy of Bouvard and Pécuchet, a classic of Flaubert on which it was based.

P – Without all the previous incursion in literary texts that pervade the poetical thought of which Deleuze is accused in The method of dramatization, it would not have been possible. The Dicionário, with all the sui generis humor that is proper to it, wouldn’t exist without it. One interesting point is that Sandra also transited through literatures that were not canonic at all, like children-youth sagas. Fabiano Neu, who was her advisee, told me that she was reading a saga, O nome do vento [The name of the wind], and this is where she took the name arcanist, that appears in the stories that she recorded for her grandchildren: the arcanist witch. There was a whole taste for epic fantasy, at the style of Chronicles of ice and fire. She read a lot of fantasy.

C – Yes, and the references showed in her classes. She brought several examples of films, of productions from the pop culture and daily stuff, a matter that didn’t have much space in the texts.

P – And the Vikings! She insisted: “You have to watch the series Vikings!”. She pointed to you, Cristiano, and said: “Look at Floki, he looks just like Floki”. She called Ester Lagertha. She said that so many times that I started to watch and became addicted to it. This was quite strong, as the series ended with her. And she didn’t watch the last episodes. For me, this was quite shocking. For me and for Ester, who was also involved.

J – There is one last topic that we would like to address: the dream. How did this exactly emerge in Sandra’s late trajectory?

P – Sandra used to dream a lot. And she said of the dreams, she said that often to me: “I dreamed of you,” “I dreamed of you and the girls,” “I dreamed of you today, is everything Ok?” She never told about the dreams, but she spoke of them. She used to say that she dreamed a lot of Ana Clara, my daughter whom she knew in my belly. By the way, I would like to make an observation here. With Ana, Sandra participated in a surreal situation for me, which was in a debutante ball in a social club. It was surreal not for the fact that I was a nondescript teen, a mix of punk and hippie, but because the desire of having Ana Clara debuting was totally out of the scope of what I had researched, critically, on the princesses. Sandra advocated for Aninha’s (only Sandra used a diminutive for my daughter’s name) will, as herself had been a debutante in her youth, in Montenegro – she was Miss Brotinho [teen beauty queen], a fact that I only came to know after her death, because her friends, especially Isabel Petry, also an Art professor, sent me pictures of her. Later, Ligia Araújo, whom I met at the beach, two weeks after Sandra had passed away by means of a neighbor compassionate for my mourning, told me several stories about that Sandra Rodrigues, a teen that we didn’t know. Anyway, Ana Clara’s debutante ball was really fun with Sandra and Hugo. We couldn’t help laughing a lot at the comments made by her. But back to the dream, the reading of Bachelard, one of the last authors with which she became involved, marked this new turn: of the dream. The dream came together with the research wills of Marina dos Reis and with the creation of sonhografia [dreamgraphy]. I had an actual contact with the effects of this new movement in a lecture by Sandra at the Arts Museum of Rio Grande do Sul, in the event Arredores da imagem [Outskirts of the image], organized by Cristiano. This was in October 2019. This lecture is not transcribed in any specific text, but it is diluted in the research project that was in its beginning, as well as in her last texts. I understand that the dream comes to be a translation, however impossible, of that fantasy of escrileitura and a vidarbo valeryana – which is going to create a new, not finished matter. Sandra was able to work for less than a year in the research A-traduzir o arquivo da aula: sonho didático e poesia curricular [To-be-translated Archive in lesson: didactic dream and curricular poetry]. This matter, of the dream, was left to us. Sandra revised many concepts of dream, but what she would do with this, in terms of writing matter and the effect that this would have in the classes, will remain incognito. The one who is developing sonhografia workshops, in fact, is Marina and her aullar [classing and howl], whose advising I inherited. The dream is not only a concept, it is also a new plan of thought that is established with the construction of quite a rich concept, a big hug that it is a way to comprise everything that was previously done: the methodosophy. When gathering all the methods, thinking the transcreation and creating methodosophy, Sandra resumes the biographematic, the metachildishnetics, and the dramatization.

J – Right now, you are ahead of the organization of the book Vidas sonhadas em educação [Dreamed lives in education], in continuation to Sandra’s proposal, right?

P – This last book project, which departs from Marcel Schwob’s Imaginary lives, comes from 2011. It resumes biographematic, a notion that is inserted in the Escrileituras project. When she resumes Dreamed lives, in the winter of 2020, she had already finished the Prolusão [Prolusion] and the Fecho [Locking] of the book Métodos de Transcriação [Methods of Transcreation]. She resumes an issue, quite a beautiful project, that had, from Schwob’s book, an obituary tone. It really looks like a witch thing, it’s quite magical that all of this happened in the last winter of her life: the winter of her 70^th birthday. It’s like she had planned it. I keep thinking on how much she dreamed at this moment of semi coma. I think about what came later. Thinking about everything that she told us and left to us. Thinking about what she lived in a dream, unconscious, along those months. For us, it was a nightmare, every day.

J – And there were also the epitaphs, which were a final practice of hers, right? The epitaphs, by the way, were the subject of the video É disso que se trata [This is what it is about], that Fabiano Neu and I made soon after her death² 2 Available at: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qqwG0kkc7w8. Accessed on: 02 Sept. 2022. . I confess that was quite a strong, gorgeous experience.

P – Yes, the epitaphs. This is when I understood that this matter dream, which is a dream of lesson, a dream of production, still is something a little esoteric to me. It’s a mystery. We experienced, in the whole path, several deaths: her mother, her father, Tania Galli – she was quite shaken by Tania’s death. These deaths and the everyday setbacks were the subject of conversations in the bars around FACED. It’s interesting to notice that at FACED, even when the biggest disagreements happen, it’s kept an elegance, a conviviality, a respect that rarely is changed. There is an ability to gather people that I don’t see in other academic units. I believe that this comes from the dialogic sense that is impregnated in the education field. Sandra, despite all her pet peeves, was extremely respected and always joined affectionately to the most bizarre situations, with people who were the most averse to what she thought. Sandra established the destiny of many people, especially through the Network formed by her. For example, she provided the contacts for Samuel, a colleague from the research line, to be able to go to Lyon for a post-doc, where he created bonds as a visiting Professor. Not without mentioning all her former advisees, wherever she passed and left marks. Even when occupying that destabilizing place occupied for a long time by Tomaz, even being the one who pointed the problems, she was always quite a sweet person. This pomba gira was paradoxical precisely for this reason: she was highly affectionate and highly inquisitive. She inquired a lot, conceptually, but, on the other hand, she also wanted to know about people’s life. She wanted to know about the plastic surgeries, the illnesses, the dating life. There was this aspect of a grapevine telegraph, as she used to call it. Although being a Leo, she had quite a strong mercuric aspect: this transit between heaven and hell, between love and hate, between stroking and scolding, between being hated and being loved. It is about a feature that is also in her production: while she was critical and later put herself at a temporary post-critical moment, she continued being critical. Later, there was that moment when she looked at the genetic critic – between the exploration of the biographematic and the emergence of the escrileitura. She had all this issue of removing the noise from the texts. She complained against the vices of the texts, of everything that left transpiring the lack of lapidation, of what had not been revised, of what had not been arduously worked. See how much all of this implies the immanence until the last strand of hair. Thus, the dream enters as non-deciphered matter and that, perhaps, does not need to be deciphered: this another matter, which distinguishes itself from the fantasy, but that is not structured. It brings the surreal question without being surrealistic, perverting this real that will never be translated. The whole time, this is what it is about.

J – To conclude: for you, where Sandra is today?

P – (Sigh) Ouch. Everywhere, over all in the dream. The hardest was the dream I had with her absence in my examination board for the advancement to be a full Professor, which will happen soon. This was when I became aware that she is not physically here anymore. But she is in the dream, and she’s here the entire time in everything what we do. It is happening now, from August to November 2021, the seminar thought by her at the hospital bed and that would be entitled Assim falou o sonho: Metodosofia para todos e para ninguém [Thus spoke the dream: Methodosophy for all and nobody]. I have chosen not to including the thus spoke the dream in the title because we wouldn’t be able to account of the dream. But almost all members of the Escrileituras Network (and some other guests that transit through it) are teaching around methodosophical texts. It’s quite pretty, and Sandra is there the whole time. Each day it is a method, sometimes two methods that talk. Almost all the lessons are related with the compendium Métodos de Transcriação, but we also have made available other texts from the book Criações e métodos na pesquisa em Educação [Creations and methods in the research in Education], that I organized with colleagues from UFBA (Universidade Federal da Bahia [Federal University of Bahia]) in conjunction with Métodos de Transcriação. They are texts and projects that depart from Sandra, therefore. They are many children, there is an Oxum there – Sandra used a lot of gold. All this production generated many children, many little heads together producing many things from this dream, from this cloud. Now I see Sandra as a cloud, a virtual force that is also updated the entire time – a type of Our Lady of Conception, the one with all those angelic little heads –, and also the horns of the pomba gira moon. She would enjoy it a lot the book Mulher Tornada [Woman Turned], which I have dedicate to her and to Tania Galli, as both encouraged me to reach this creation. In this taste for the figuration – wow!, how much she demanded, in examination boards, the concept of figure! –, there were also the little owls. She had those little owls at the side of her work desk, and she gave me a figurine that is an owl with her two daughters: a blue owl, which I kept for years in my atelier, Canto eXquiZ, a place that now became Cora’s house – my daughter who studies Pedagogy by the guidance of Sandra. Cora didn’t allow me to take the owls given by Sandra; a gift is a way of having the person who gave it close. Another day, I went there, and I looked at the little owls with the mother. It was impossible not to think on Sandra, even though she had known this property only in cloud.

J – A cloud, at last.

P – There is also this image of many little heads. The seminar in which we are working now, that searches to deal with this whole dream, is made of all these little heads. And there are even little heads that she didn’t meet, that used her a lot in their research and dissertations. It’s a cloud with the obscurities of the methods and the dramatizations, but it is not baroque because this cloud has the romantic realism of that dream that, a long time ago, followed Paulo Freire. The dream ends when it acquires the classic hardness of Michel Foucault, but later flies with Gilles Deleuze, enjoys with Roland Barthes and is braided in this enigmatic matter that we have now, showing how much there is no end. All these forces that she left – dreamed, imagined, unfinished – remain.

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